{"id":9635,"date":"2024-10-24T09:48:00","date_gmt":"2024-10-24T09:48:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.brightmine.com\/uk\/?post_type=resources&#038;p=9635"},"modified":"2026-04-13T13:06:24","modified_gmt":"2026-04-13T13:06:24","slug":"podcast-sexual-harassment-in-the-workplace","status":"publish","type":"resources","link":"https:\/\/www.brightmine.com\/uk\/resources\/hr-compliance\/bullying-harassment\/podcast-sexual-harassment-in-the-workplace\/","title":{"rendered":"Sexual harassment in the workplace &#8211; legal changes, generational shifts"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<div class=\"wp-block-group alignwide has-primary-white-background-color has-background has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-container-core-group-is-layout-b5fc8583 wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\" style=\"border-radius:25px;padding-top:var(--wp--preset--spacing--30);padding-right:var(--wp--preset--spacing--30);padding-bottom:var(--wp--preset--spacing--30);padding-left:var(--wp--preset--spacing--30)\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-columns is-layout-flex wp-container-core-columns-is-layout-7fc3d43a wp-block-columns-is-layout-flex\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-column is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\" style=\"flex-basis:70%\">\n<p class=\"\">With <a href=\"https:\/\/www.brightmine.com\/uk\/solutions\/reduce-compliance-risk\/\">changes to the law<\/a> regarding sexual harassment in the workplace coming into effect this autumn \u2014 and further changes promised in the Government&#8217;s Employment Rights Bill \u2014 we are joined by&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/hrcentre.uk.brightmine.com\/authors\/lisa-bell\/167372\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Lisa Bell<\/a>&nbsp;from Tell Jane to discuss the new legal duty on employers, the impact of technology and generational shifts in attitude.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p id=\"listen\" class=\"\">Listen now for actionable insights, expert analysis, and a look at what\u2019s next for HR.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-rich is-provider-spotify wp-block-embed-spotify wp-embed-aspect-21-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<iframe title=\"Spotify Embed: Sexual harassment in the workplace \u2013 legal changes, generational shifts\" style=\"border-radius: 12px\" width=\"100%\" height=\"152\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen allow=\"autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; fullscreen; picture-in-picture\" loading=\"lazy\" src=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/embed\/episode\/2RC12q5RxSEjzITiaew9aQ?utm_source=oembed\"><\/iframe>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<details id=\"transcript\" class=\"wp-block-details has-secondary-blue-color has-text-color has-link-color wp-elements-9839e744d46a82db9a287a913599f373 is-layout-flow wp-block-details-is-layout-flow\" style=\"font-size:clamp(14px, 0.875rem + ((1vw - 3.2px) * 0.548), 18px);\"><summary>Read the transcript<\/summary>\n<p class=\"\"><strong>Robert Shore: <\/strong>Hello, and welcome to the Brightmine podcast, formerly known as the XpertHR podcast. Brightmine is a leading provider of people data, analytics and insight, offering employment law expertise, comprehensive HR resources and reward data to meet every HR and organisational challenge and opportunity. You can find us any time of the day or night at <a href=\"\/uk\/\">www.brightmine.com<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">My name is Robert Shore, and today we are going to be discussing sexual harassment in the workplace. To do this, I am joined by Lisa Bell from Tell Jane, which is a HR and ED&amp;I consultancy dedicated to tackling toxic workplace behaviour and enhancing company culture. Lisa has authored our new harassment and sexual harassment leading practice guides, which you can access on the Brightmine website, and these are published, of course, to coincide with the legislation coming into effect on 26 October 2024, which provides for a positive duty on employers to take reasonable steps to prevent sexual harassment of their employees in the course of their employment. Lisa, welcome.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\"><strong>Lisa Bell: <\/strong>Thanks for having me.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\"><strong>Robert Shore:<\/strong> You\u2019ve just written the guides for us, but I think first of all you now run an organisation called Tell Jane. And I just wanted to know about your experience before setting up Tell Jane.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\"><strong>Lisa Bell:<\/strong> I\u2019ll start maybe just before I started Tell Jane. So, I was pregnant at the time. And I was in the middle of a huge TUPE programme for a client, and I found it quite demoralising. And it was around the time of the MeToo movement starting on the news. And I was having a lot of reflections of things that had happened earlier in my career, and I knew that I didn\u2019t want to go back into sort of this fractional HRD role that I\u2019d been in, and I knew that the maternity leave that I was about to embark on would provide me with an opportunity to sort of reflect and reposition how I was.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">And I was watching all the stuff unravel on the news, and it really took me back to a time in my career when I was around 24, 25. I remember being at an awards dinner. There was somebody quite prominent in the industry that was receiving an award. And after the awards, the individual stuck his hand up my skirt. And after he did that, I told him not to do that \u2013 and maybe used slightly different language! \u2013 and I went and spoke to the CEO of my company at the time, who went and had a word with the individual. And frankly, I felt it was dealt with really, really well. I felt like the matter was closed in the moment. And I didn\u2019t feel aggrieved at the end of it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">I actually never really thought about it again until this stuff was happening on the news, and it did make me reflect because I realised that I was in a very privileged position, that I had a good relationship with my CEO that respected and trusted my opinion and didn\u2019t question when I spoke up. And I thought about how many other people out there might not be in the same situation and might not have had such a good experience when they spoke up.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Tell Jane was born from that. I really originally set up Tell Jane to be a sexual harassment prevention service. So that gives you a little bit of a flavour of me and why I do what I do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\"><strong>Robert Shore: <\/strong>Yeah. I mean, it\u2019s quite interesting then that it\u2019s borne out of you effectively having a good experience\u2026I mean, obviously there\u2019s something very unpleasant happening but actually you felt that it was really well handled.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\"><strong>Lisa Bell:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\"><strong>Robert Shore:<\/strong> But then you wanted to carry that forward so that other people could also have a similarly good outcome?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\"><strong>Lisa Bell: <\/strong>Yeah. I know. It\u2019s hard to find the right words sometimes when talking about something so sensitive as well. You know, it\u2019s sometimes\u2026and even today, you know, I might be clumsy with my words with some of the things that we\u2019re talking about. But I always think it\u2019s good to have brave conversations around these things and be forgiving if we are\u2026I mean, I sometimes find myself in these situations but it\u2019s important that we talk about the things that make us feel uncomfortable, like sexual harassment, like sexual assault. By talking about it, it\u2019s a great way to embolden other people to speak up. Because that is often the challenge around this stuff. It doesn\u2019t matter what survey you look at and what industry you look at, the stats tell us that people don\u2019t speak up.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\"><strong>Robert Shore:<\/strong> How does Tell Jane operate, then? How does it\u2026how have you modelled it in order to assist with that process?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\"><strong>Lisa Bell:<\/strong> Well, there\u2019s three parts to the business. One part, it sounds counterintuitive but it is dealing with sensitive workplace investigations. I always want HR to get on the front foot more broadly and prevent things, and that\u2019s where this new duty coming in is great from my perspective, \u2018\u2019cause it has got that prevention element within it. But also there\u2019s nothing quite like a badly handled investigation to sort of linger in the air and unravel all the prevention work that happened. So we provide investigation services, which also inform the rest of our prevention training that we do. And we have an anonymous reporting service as well, so people can speak up.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Often these things are muddled into whistleblowing procedures, and actually the people picking up the phone deal with whistleblowing sometimes but don\u2019t always have the experience to deal with assault cases.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\"><strong>Robert Shore:<\/strong> So obviously the new duty is coming in. In the first place, given that these things have been spoken about more openly for some time now, why is sexual harassment still so prevalent, would you say, in the workplace?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\"><strong>Lisa Bell:<\/strong> Such a good question, because I ask myself that question on a daily basis. All of us in HR and people listening will be thinking, you know, \u2018Nothing shocks me. I\u2019ve seen it all.\u2019 We\u2019ve seen a lot, particularly those working in employer relations teams will be seeing a lot day to day. But weekly there\u2019s still something that comes across my desk that I just think, \u2018Why is this still going on?\u2019<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">And I think there\u2019s a couple of reasons why it\u2019s still going on. When I first founded Tell Jane, it was interesting because I found that a lot of senior leaders, exec teams, CEOs really wanted to talk to me about our services and what we do, and showed a lot of interest. But it wasn\u2019t a problem in their organisation.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">So whilst it\u2019s interesting talking about cases, \u2018And can you believe this happened? And this case, and\u2026\u2019, it\u2019s not happening in our house. It\u2019s happening in someone else\u2019s house, is very much the view of leaders. And it\u2019s just not the case. So I think it\u2019s deniable.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">I think another key factor is, sexual harassment specifically has an underlying power dynamic often. There will be cases where that doesn\u2019t always apply but the majority of times there is an underlying power dynamic. And that underlying power dynamic doesn\u2019t have to sit within the organisational hierarchy. It could be someone with social power, right? In the sports industry it could be the sports personality. In the TV or film it could be, you know, some talent. In big corporate law firms it could be partners. Where power resides in different organisations, however it presents itself is always different. Those places are the places where the risks show up.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">And often, I think, people in power need to change. And they\u2019re also the people that are making the decisions of what to do when people speak up. So it can be quite messy from that perspective.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\"><strong>Robert Shore: <\/strong>Talk us through a little bit the new duty and then we\u2019ll get back into some of these issues. 26 October things have changed a bit. Not quite as much as was suggested when the bill was first debated.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\"><strong>Lisa Bell: <\/strong>Yep.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\"><strong>Robert Shore: <\/strong>With the possibilities of change again in the future. But what\u2019s changed now?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\"><strong>Lisa Bell: <\/strong>So, there\u2019s a duty on employers to prevent sexual harassment. I\u2019m not a lawyer but, you know, if it goes into the employment tribunal and they\u2019re found not to have prevented, it\u2019s up to a 25% uplift potentially that\u2019s applicable.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">And I think the idea behind it is very much to get employers more on the front foot. It\u2019s interesting, I definitely see certain sectors that spend a lot more in our investigation side, and other sectors will spend a lot more in the prevention space. And a little bit of money spent in the prevention space, I see it across clients, multiple clients, it goes a<br>much longer way than just dealing with a really expensive, messy investigation, for sure.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\"><strong>Robert Shore: <\/strong>You began there talking about power. Is this the most problematic area still with sexual harassment? Is it easier to deal with sexual harassment when it\u2019s further down the chain of command? Do you find there\u2019s a difference in the way organisations deal with things depending on where it happens?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\"><strong>Lisa Bell:<\/strong> Well, I think that in the more junior positions in the organisation I think that HR\u2019s really empowered to deal with it. I think the challenge is the more senior the individual is, the more of a debate there often is around what to do next. It\u2019s cynical but it\u2019s the reality of what we see in practice. And also, often maybe the individual, even at the end of an investigation that it\u2019s found the case is upheld and all that kind of stuff, the individual might have certain client relationships, they might be\u2026their power might reside in how much revenue they\u2019re responsible for, or a technical skillset that they bring to an organisation. It could be a whole host of things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">It\u2019s really important to be clear that that power isn\u2019t gendered as well. Most of the cases I see, and the stats will tell us, that it tends to be senior men harassing junior women. But it\u2019s actually the LGBTQIA community that\u2019s most likely to experience sexual harassment at work.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Also, some of the worst cases I\u2019ve seen have been senior women harassing junior men.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">So it\u2019s not gendered from that perspective. It\u2019s power-related. The challenge is that often positions of power are often held by men.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\"><strong>Robert Shore:<\/strong> Is there a way that organisations can change the way they think that will help them to deal better with that?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\"><strong>Lisa Bell:<\/strong> My advice to HR teams is to create more accountability to get leaders to make better decisions once they\u2019ve done investigations, outcomes and findings is to really \u2013 and this is cynical but it\u2019s more effective \u2013 is to really talk around what leaders are on the hook for, what their duties are, making sure that there\u2019s a clear understanding about the impact of the organisation\u2019s reputation as well. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Understanding what message that sends internally to the company culture and how that can impact how people feel about the organisation. And because, whilst these<br>things can be dealt with confidentially, there still can be a whole host of gossip and rumour and things that sit around this. And this is often why people don\u2019t speak up in the first place.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\"><strong>Robert Shore:<\/strong> So, obviously training is really key, and training at every level in an organisation?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\"><strong>Lisa Bell:<\/strong> Yeah. And there needs to be a very different training for the senior execs, right? To be honest, it\u2019s not training that I would ever provide. I think it\u2019s much better done by a law firm. It\u2019s around caselaw, it\u2019s understanding what they\u2019re on the hook for. You know, there needs to be that kind of conversation at the top level.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">And then there needs to be very different training that\u2019s more practical, that\u2019s sort of, \u2018How do you nip things in the bud? How do you identify things? How do you make sure people know that you\u2019re approachable and that they can come and talk to you?\u2019 You know, all these things. They\u2019re slightly different approaches at different levels. And if you can get that right and cascade it through, it\u2019s really effective.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\"><strong>Robert Shore:<\/strong> Yeah. So let\u2019s talk about technology and the way that technology has sort of impacted this area. And when we were talking before, we were talking about virtual spaces and real spaces, and the way that actually everybody has to grasp the consequences of actions in, say, a virtual space and what that can mean for your life.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">So, how long has Tell Jane been existence again?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\"><strong>Lisa Bell: <\/strong>Seven years in January, actually.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\"><strong>Robert Shore:<\/strong> So, seven years. Tell Jane, then, is born into already obviously a kind of digital space. But are you seeing changes in the way that things are happening now? Is it getting\u2026are people getting wiser about the consequences of sort of what they do in a virtual space?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\"><strong>Lisa Bell: <\/strong>What people forget\u2026\u2019cause people often think\u2026if I asked you to close your eyes and think of an example of sexual harassment, you\u2019ll think of something quite over\u2026maybe in a work social setting that\u2019s happened after work, maybe in a restaurant or in a pub or something like that. Or a staff party. You know, these are the things where we typically think sexual harassment shows up. And if you Google examples, it\u2019ll be on ACAS or wherever you look, that\u2019s what\u2019s going to come up.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">The reality is, is it\u2019s often transposed into the virtual space. So it\u2019s transposed into chat messages and on social media. Even we\u2019ve seen cases within clients where colleagues have approached each other on dating apps as well. These add another layer of complexities. And people need to be clear around these grey areas, grey areas like, \u2018Hmm, so I\u2019ve got a private WhatsApp conversation with a colleague who is a friend and there\u2019s inappropriate images on it or jokes of a sexual nature.\u2019 Or, \u2018I\u2019ve approached someone on a dating app and asked for\u2026\u2019 I mean, the types of things we see is inappropriate pictures being sent, you know. All these sorts of things that then unravel and become quite messy to unpack, frankly, because there\u2019s a lot of this that feels like it\u2019s very much in the personal space. And as HR professionals we\u2019re not really designed to get in people\u2019s personal lives. But these boundaries are becoming very, very blurred, and it can become very difficult to manage. And you can be made aware of things that you don\u2019t have access to.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\"><strong>Robert Shore:<\/strong> At the level of evidence of something happening, I suppose it can be quite useful in a way to have things that happen online, in that there\u2019s often a trace of something, whereas in an after-work context often it\u2019s what somebody says happened. But at the same time obviously it leaves this kind of indelible trace that\u2019s really hard to remove and maybe that\u2019s also sometimes very difficult for everybody involved as well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\"><strong>Lisa Bell:<\/strong> Yeah. Well, I think also we\u2019ve got to be mindful of things like AI coming in. There\u2019s the concept of deepfakes. If people don\u2019t understand what a deepfake is, it\u2019s when someone\u2019s face is maybe superimposed on an inappropriate image of a sexual nature. These things can look extremely realistic. And they could be sent around a group WhatsApp chat amongst colleagues, which the person who the deepfake\u2019s been made of might not be privy to. But they\u2019re aware there\u2019s something going on. Someone\u2019s told them something and the types of things that then come to the HR team is, \u2018There\u2019s a WhatsApp chat. I\u2019ve not seen it but I\u2019ve heard this.\u2019 And that\u2019s really tricky to deal with. You might not have access to the information. It\u2019s great if you\u2019ve got access. It\u2019s on a chat function, you\u2019ve got clear evidence. And also that\u2019s really valuable but often that\u2019s not the case. It\u2019s often something that\u2019s slightly out of reach that gets reported.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\"><strong>Robert Shore:<\/strong> So what do you do, actually, as an HR department in that sort of case? You know, what is a useful first step?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\"><strong>Lisa Bell:<\/strong> There\u2019s so much context that\u2019s needed in terms of what to do. I mean, I hate the word \u2018it depends\u2019, but it depends. So typically, I would start by\u2026the person that\u2019s come and spoke to me\u2026and it\u2019s a template question but it\u2019s an important question is, \u2018Thank you for coming to raise this with me. It took a lot of courage to come and speak to me. What would a good outcome look like for you here?\u2019 or, \u2018How do you<br>envisage this working out in a positive way?\u2019 I\u2019m trying to find the right words here but, you know, \u2018How can I best work through this with you?\u2019 Because I think sometimes somebody often\u2026and some people like the word \u2018survivor\u2019 or \u2018victim\u2019. For the purpose of the podcast I\u2019m going to use the word \u2018victim\u2019. The person that\u2019s been subjected to this behaviour needs to be re-empowered often. Asking them these questions is empowering for them. So that\u2019s the first thing I would do. If they want you to deal with it and they want you to investigate it and you have not got access \u2018cause it\u2019s on some private WhatsApp chat, that can be really tricky. But I would approach\u2026I\u2019d start with an informal chat before starting a formal investigation with whoever may be on the WhatsApp group, you know, someone\u2026maybe if there\u2019s a manager on there. Often there\u2019s a manager on there. Often there is a manager that\u2019s not necessarily participating in the chat but they\u2019re also not preventing it. We see this on Teams chats, Slack channels, all these different chat channels that people have in work. There are so many cases we see where manager is on the chat, manager isn\u2019t really reading the chat. Inappropriate images or comments, whatever they do, show up in the chat function and manager hasn\u2019t said or done anything. And unfortunately, they get themselves in a right pickle at that stage, frankly.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">So if there\u2019s a manager I\u2019d approach them. I\u2019d approach the most senior person and say, \u2018Look, is there anything going on here that I need to be made aware of?\u2019 I\u2019d just start the conversation there and take it from there.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">If you\u2019re not getting any answers \u2013 which for sure can happen in these circumstances \u2013 I would have very much a conversation, \u2018Well, I hope there is nothing going on. And if there is, I hope that any images of the individual are removed and deleted permanently off everyone\u2026\u2019 You know, I\u2019d actually do it informally in those scenarios or I would try and get the evidence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\"><strong>Robert Shore: <\/strong>So we wanted to think a little bit also about generational shifts here because, you know, the youngest generations at the moment, I think, have a lot more education when they go through school about these matters. Are you seeing a big difference between people who are in their twenties and thirties and people who are older? And often, does having a grasp of the concept really change the way people behave?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\"><strong>Lisa Bell:<\/strong> I don\u2019t know whether they behave differently but they\u2019re definitely more willing to report. There\u2019s a TUC survey \u2013 I can\u2019t remember what date it is \u2013 but they looked at women and girls aged 16 to 24 and they were 64% more likely \u2013 I\u2019d have to check the exact stat but around that \u2013 more likely to speak up than my generation was. I see that in practice as well, so that definitely is reflected. So yeah, I think there\u2019s a lot more speaking up.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Younger generations \u2013 I\u2019m now generalising \u2013 are generally better at setting boundaries around these things. I would still say it\u2019s still prevalent. It\u2019s just it tends to be a little bit more integrated with technology.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">I also think that amongst maybe my generation they\u2019re more likely to put up with a little bit more before they report. I think the types of reporting with my generation are much more serious cases. It really takes the straw that broke the camel\u2019s back for them to come forward often. So maybe that gives you an idea.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\"><strong>Robert Shore:<\/strong> And the fact that people report more readily and sooner possibly means that a lot of more serious incidents might be headed off? Obviously that doesn\u2019t stop everything, but do you think that broadly it is giving rise to a healthier culture? Is that a reasonable thing to say?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\"><strong>Lisa Bell:<\/strong> I think definitely at the lower level, yes. With the younger generation, the serious ones it\u2019s still very hard for them to speak up. They may have been traumatized, particularly if we\u2019re talking more around the assault space rather than the sexual harassment space. No, I don\u2019t think there\u2019s a change there.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">If we look outside of the workplace in wider society around convictions around assault and rape and things like that, there\u2019s so many deterrents beyond the workplace. So these experiences, if they happen in the workplace the stats aren\u2019t going to be any different to what they are in wider society. And often HR gets a complaint that might actually not be theirs to deal with. It might be a police matter. We unfortunately see rape cases at Tell Jane, for sure.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\"><strong>Robert Shore: <\/strong>What sort of questions should you be asking yourself to understand the level of seriousness? It\u2019s all serious but actually, who should be handling this?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\"><strong>Lisa Bell:<\/strong> Before I would ask a question, I advise all clients, all HR teams, to have a spectrum of behaviour, right? So you\u2019ve got inappropriate jokes of a sexual nature or a bit of innuendo down the lower end of the spectrum. Right at the more serious end of the spectrum you\u2019ve got the assault, rape, police matters.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">So when someone comes and speaks to you, they might come to you with something fairly innocuous. So the initial questions, rather than being dismissive with something quite minor, I would say, \u2018How did they say it? Tell me a little bit more than that. Has it happened before?\u2019 Something we use in training, a simple thing was, \u2018Somebody came and told me I looked pretty today.\u2019 You know, earlier in my career I\u2019d say, \u2018Well, it\u2019s a compliment. Please, have you not got anything better to do?\u2019 And now I wouldn\u2019t. I would never say that. I would say, \u2018How did they say it?\u2019 \u2018Well, they leant down over my desk and whispered it in my ear.\u2019 Well, there\u2019s a very different case to deal with there when you get the further information. So probing questions, open questions, \u2018Tell me more\u2019 kind of questions. Never, ever, ever ask a \u2018why\u2019 question. A typical coaching philosophy that sits around this, but it will invoke a defensive reaction from the person speaking up. And it will also break the trust in that conversation as well. So avoid \u2018why\u2019 questions, \u2018what\u2019 questions, \u2018when\u2019 questions. Get as much information as possible.  And don\u2019t think you have to respond in the moment. Thank them for coming to speak to you. Reassure them that it\u2019s going to be dealt with appropriately and confidentially, and explain what that means. And say, \u2018This is really important. I want to have a little think about it and could we meet again tomorrow?\u2019 And give yourself some time and space to get the right response. I see so many cases of leaders outside of HR, and HR leaders even, giving the wrong response in the moment because, \u2018Oh gosh, this sounds really worrying.\u2019 Give yourself time and space is really important.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\"><strong>Robert Shore:<\/strong> The very fact that somebody has come to see you probably means that you need to listen carefully, even if it sounds very modest. Initially you should just make sure that you get somebody to talk a bit. Because actually, if they\u2019ve come to see you the chances are it\u2019s because there is something that is really concerning them and that you need to hear.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\"><strong>Lisa Bell: <\/strong>Yeah. I think sometimes we forget, because we\u2019re human in HR, we forget that it\u2019s a big deal for someone coming to speak to us. And we think, \u2018Oh well, we\u2019re human. Of course someone\u2026\u2019 \u2013 I\u2019ve heard this loads of times, \u2018\u2026of course they\u2019re going to come and speak. Of course I will help them.\u2019 Particularly if they\u2019ve been sexually harassed. Well actually, it\u2019s a really big deal to come and knock on our door or to ring us up. And we must remember that we\u2019re in a position of power ourselves. And also, they might have had a bad experience in another organisation speaking up against these kinds of behaviours, or they know a friend that\u2019s not had a great experience, or whatever it might be. \u2018Cause there could be lots of reasons that made that really difficult. So we want to make sure they have a good experience. And that, \u2018Thank you for bringing that to my attention. It must have taken a lot of courage to come and speak to me. I really appreciate that,\u2019 is a great way to deal with it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\"><strong>Robert Shore:<\/strong> So you say HR has power. It\u2019s answerable to power as well within an organisation. Is it sometimes quite difficult to have a moral compass that is separate from an awareness of power relations? I mean, that is to say, to be able to really see something clearly for what it is without being concerned about the ramifications for your organisation?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\"><strong>Lisa Bell:<\/strong> I think this definitely becomes more prominent the more senior the person that\u2019s being complained about. And this is why in the more junior roles it\u2019s easier to solve. So yes, absolutely. It can feel like a conflict. And you know, I\u2019m in the privileged position of being outside of an organisation, and I\u2019m not really answerable to clients around these things. And I think that probably because of that challenge is why I do what I do as an external, frankly. I definitely feel like when I was an internal, you are balancing things. And it is often down to the individual HR person and their moral compass. And frankly, their understanding of, yes, they may understand the Equality Act, and yes, they understand the policies and procedures. Absolutely. You know, they will do in their profession. But do they understand about why people don\u2019t come forward? Do they understand the power dynamic? Do they understand the nuances around, you know, if somebody comes and reports an incident of assault or rape between two colleagues two years\u2019 later, do they understand that actually, the reason why there\u2019s a delay, you know, we see a typical answer is, \u2018Well why didn\u2019t they speak up sooner?\u2019 Well, because they\u2019re really traumatized. I don\u2019t think that everybody would understand that naturally, \u2018cause they\u2019ve got a big job and it\u2019s much broader than that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\"><strong>Robert Shore:<\/strong> One other question in terms of workforces is they\u2019ve become more international in character. And we talk then a lot about company culture and trying to have a single culture, but often where you\u2019re dealing with individuals who have grown up in different places, also who are still based in different places, who work internationally across borders, how easy is it to make sure that everybody understands the same thing about how one is supposed to behave in the workplace and beyond?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\"><strong>Lisa Bell: <\/strong>Do you know, that\u2019s such a great question. I\u2019m really glad you asked that because I see it with cases. It\u2019s just a cultural difference. Honestly, I don\u2019t buy that generally. I think anyone that uses cultural differences as a lack of understanding around this stuff, particularly when there\u2019s been an incident, you know, you really need to take a step back and have a think about that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">But in terms of organisations working across different cultures and different geographies, there are different cultures around this. What we would encourage clients to do is set a company message with a global message around this, and be really clear that, \u2018Yes, we have different jurisdictions and different countries that we\u2019re working in, and there\u2019s different bits of legislation in all these different countries, but this is our global way and we all have to work to these global standards of our company.\u2019 It does work. People definitely understand it. There\u2019s lots of huge movements around this, particularly in parts of Asia. India at the moment, there\u2019s a huge shift and lots of conversations going around this. It is a global conversation, for sure.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\"><strong>Robert Shore:<\/strong> To wrap up, can I ask you for three top tips that, you know, HR departments could take on board in thinking about these issues?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\"><strong>Lisa Bell:<\/strong> Yeah. Well, I\u2019m really conscious that all your listeners will have different budgets around these things. So let\u2019s talk about different things you can do for different budgets.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">So Tip 1, this is a free tip, it will cost you absolutely nothing. Get your leadership team to send out a really clear message around the culture that they want to create in the organisation. And part of that message is that you want a culture that\u2019s free from harassment, sexual harassment, discrimination and bullying. And if anyone feels<br>uncomfortable at work, this is where they should report things. So something really simple like that, that would be my first bit of advice. The next thing you need to do is work on your reporting mechanism. So I would recommend everybody have a one-pager, and across that one\u0002pager I\u2019d like you to have three columns. So one column is support.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">And you might have your employee assistance programme details, you might have mental health first aiders. Anything to do with wellbeing sits in that support column.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">The second column is confidential reporting. You can go to your manager. You can go to your manager\u2019s manager. You can go to any senior leader. These are all the different people. You can go to the HR team. All the different ways they can confidentially report not just sexual harassment, all the other behaviours too. \u2018Cause a lot of the stuff we\u2019ve spoken about, while we\u2019ve very much talked about it through the lens of sexual harassment, it can apply to bullying, it can apply to discrimination too. So that\u2019s the confidential.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">And the third column is anonymous. And explain what anonymous is and how they report. So that would be my next tip.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">And my final prevention tip would be training conversations around what it is, how they should deal with it. I think you\u2019ve got to build that awareness. So yeah, obviously that\u2019s budget-depending, you\u2019ve got different options but yep, training for sure.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\"><strong>Robert Shore:<\/strong> Well again, Lisa, thank you so much. There are, of course, lots of supporting materials on our website, including Lisa\u2019s own new leading practice guides. So I would encourage anybody listening to this to have a look at them there, and I\u2019ll put a link to them in the show notes. And then all I can say now is, until next time.<\/p>\n<\/details>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"speakers\">Brightmine host<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-group alignwide is-nowrap is-layout-flex wp-container-core-group-is-layout-6c531013 wp-block-group-is-layout-flex\">\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-thumbnail is-resized is-style-rounded\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"150\" height=\"150\" src=\"https:\/\/cdn.brightmine.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2025\/01\/17154338\/Robert_Shore-150x150.webp\" alt=\"Robert Shore, HR Market Insights Editor at Brightmine\" class=\"wp-image-10115\" style=\"object-fit:cover;width:100px;height:100px\"\/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"has-text-align-left\"><strong>Robert Shore<\/strong><br>HR Markets Insights Editor, Brightmine<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Guest speakers<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-group is-nowrap is-layout-flex wp-container-core-group-is-layout-6c531013 wp-block-group-is-layout-flex\">\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full is-resized is-style-rounded\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"150\" height=\"150\" src=\"https:\/\/cdn.brightmine.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2024\/01\/13144636\/speaker-avatar.webp\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-14506\" style=\"object-fit:cover;width:100px;height:100px\"\/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\"><strong>Lisa Bell<\/strong><br>Founder of Tell Jane<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-column lnrs-hide-block-on-mobile is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\" style=\"border-left-color:var(--wp--preset--color--secondary-gray);border-left-width:2px;padding-left:10px;flex-basis:30%\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-group has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained wp-container-2 is-position-sticky\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-group has-secondary-gray-background-color has-background has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-container-core-group-is-layout-db4c44a6 wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\" style=\"border-radius:14px;padding-top:10px;padding-right:10px;padding-bottom:10px;padding-left:10px\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-group is-vertical is-layout-flex wp-container-core-group-is-layout-4b827052 wp-block-group-is-layout-flex\">\n<p style=\"margin-bottom:5px;font-style:normal;font-weight:400\" class=\"\">In this resource:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"has-primary-black-color has-text-color has-link-color wp-elements-459ffb2a7b3dc338c93226d3be8270c8\" style=\"margin-top:5px;margin-bottom:5px;font-size:clamp(14px, 0.875rem + ((1vw - 3.2px) * 0.274), 16px);line-height:1.3\"><a href=\"#listen\">Listen now<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"has-primary-black-color has-text-color has-link-color wp-elements-53b045a32da828cda288ce2a72946a2d\" style=\"margin-top:5px;margin-bottom:5px;font-size:clamp(14px, 0.875rem + ((1vw - 3.2px) * 0.274), 16px);line-height:1.3\"><a href=\"#transcript\">Transcript<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"has-primary-black-color has-text-color has-link-color wp-elements-71518ad09f03d83428d3713a9cbb6f21\" style=\"margin-top:5px;margin-bottom:5px;font-size:clamp(14px, 0.875rem + ((1vw - 3.2px) * 0.274), 16px);line-height:1.3\"><a href=\"#speakers\">Speakers<\/a><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-group has-bleach-white-background-color has-background has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-container-core-group-is-layout-a36fa716 wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\" style=\"border-radius:14px;padding-top:10px;padding-right:15px;padding-bottom:15px;padding-left:15px\">\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Navigate HR complexity with confidence<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">With Brightmine, you can build powerful people strategies, implement best practices and set your organisation up for a brighter future.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Learn how our tools, resources and automation can empower you and your team.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-buttons is-layout-flex wp-block-buttons-is-layout-flex\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-button\"><a class=\"wp-block-button__link wp-element-button\" href=\"\/uk\/solutions\/?intcmp=cta|blog|solutions|learn-more\" style=\"border-radius:25px\">Learn more<\/a><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-group has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\" style=\"margin-top:var(--wp--preset--spacing--40);margin-bottom:var(--wp--preset--spacing--40)\">\n<p class=\"\"><a href=\"#top\">Go back to the top<\/a><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-group has-primary-white-background-color has-background has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-container-core-group-is-layout-4b7a3f7f wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\" style=\"border-radius:25px;margin-top:var(--wp--preset--spacing--30);margin-bottom:var(--wp--preset--spacing--30);padding-top:var(--wp--preset--spacing--30);padding-right:var(--wp--preset--spacing--30);padding-bottom:var(--wp--preset--spacing--30);padding-left:var(--wp--preset--spacing--30)\">\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">You may also be interested in&#8230;<\/h2>\n\n\n<section id=\"resources-search-filter\" class=\"wp-elements-eb60d2aa562c98a7b50e21d75bf061b3 wp-block-brightmine-resources-filter has-text-color has-primary-black-color has-background has-primary-white-background-color\">\n\n\n<div class=\"ajax-filter\">\n<div class=\"lnrs-resources-search-filter editor-posts-filtered-types  \">\n\t\t<div class=\"search_terms_bottom\">\n\t\t\t<div class=\"bottom_left\">\n\t\t\t<div class=\"search_terms_result_count\">\n\t\t\t\t\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t<div class=\"bottom_right\">\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/div>\n<\/div>\n\n\t<div class=\"loader-container\">\n\t\t<span class=\"loader\" style=\"display: none;\"><\/span>\n\t<\/div>\n\n\n\t<div class=\"lnrs-resource-filter-widget__container\">\n\n\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"lnrs-resource-hub-widget__resource\" style=\"background-color: #E9E7E4\">\n\t\t\t\t\t<a href=\"https:\/\/www.brightmine.com\/uk\/resources\/hr-strategy\/workforce-planning\/employment-rights-act-special-how-organisation-design-can-help-businesses\/\"><div class=\"lnrs-resource-hub-widget__resource_image\" style=\"background-image: url(https:\/\/cdn.brightmine.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2026\/03\/31122925\/two-people-reviewing-laptop-together-at-table.webp);\"><\/div><\/a>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"lnrs-resource-hub-widget__inner_content\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"content-top\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"lnrs-resource-hub-widget__categories\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<span 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href=\"https:\/\/www.brightmine.com\/uk\/resources\/gender-pay-gap-reporting-lessons-learned-and-what-comes-next\/\">Gender pay gap reporting &#8211; lessons learned and what comes next<\/a><\/h3>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t<p style=\"color: #000000\">Michelle Gyimah joins the Brightmine podcast to explain Employment Rights Act 2025 reforms and why HR should prepare &#8230;<\/p>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\n\t\n<\/div>\n<\/section><\/div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-group alignfull has-primary-white-background-color has-background has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-container-core-group-is-layout-0fd240ca wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\" id=\"newsletter\" style=\"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;padding-top:var(--wp--preset--spacing--40);padding-right:var(--wp--preset--spacing--30);padding-bottom:var(--wp--preset--spacing--40);padding-left:var(--wp--preset--spacing--30)\">\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading has-text-align-center 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By registering your details, you understand that your personal data will be handled according to our <a href=\"https:\/\/risk.lexisnexis.com\/group\/privacy-policy\/\" target=\"_blank\">Privacy Policy<\/a>. \n<\/p><input type=\"hidden\" name=\"client_id\" class=\"client_id\" \/><input type=\"text\" class=\"elq-itemhp-tel5\" name=\"Telephone5\" value=\"\" style=\"width:100%;\" autocomplete=\"2S0OI3\">\n\t\t<input type=\"text\" class=\"elq-itemhp-tel6\" name=\"Telephone6\" value=\"\" style=\"width:100%;\" autocomplete=\"DduwX4\">\n\t\t<input type=\"text\" class=\"elq-itemhp-tel7\" name=\"Telephone7\" value=\"\" style=\"width:100%;\" autocomplete=\"8ihsaF\"><div class=\"wpcf7-response-output\" aria-hidden=\"true\"><\/div>\n<\/form>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Lisa Bell\u00a0from Tell Jane discusses the new legal duty on employers to prevent sexual harassment, the impact of technology and generational shifts in attitude.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":24,"featured_media":11272,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"wp-custom-template-new-resources","categories":[19],"tags":[],"topic":[67],"class_list":["post-9635","resources","type-resources","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-podcasts","topic-bullying-harassment"],"_lnrs_read_more":"","yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v27.0 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/product\/yoast-seo-wordpress\/ -->\n<title>Sexual harassment in the workplace - legal changes, generational shifts | Brightmine<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Lisa Bell\u00a0from Tell Jane discusses the new legal duty on employers to prevent sexual harassment, the impact of technology and more.\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/www.brightmine.com\/uk\/resources\/hr-compliance\/bullying-harassment\/podcast-sexual-harassment-in-the-workplace\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_GB\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Sexual harassment in the workplace - legal changes, generational shifts | Brightmine\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"Lisa Bell\u00a0from Tell Jane discusses the new legal duty on employers to prevent sexual harassment, the impact of technology and more.\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/www.brightmine.com\/uk\/resources\/hr-compliance\/bullying-harassment\/podcast-sexual-harassment-in-the-workplace\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"Brightmine UK\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:modified_time\" content=\"2026-04-13T13:06:24+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:image\" content=\"https:\/\/cdn.brightmine.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2025\/04\/16174258\/feature-employee-reading-sexual-harassment-prevention-responsibilities-1200x627px.webp\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:width\" content=\"1200\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:height\" content=\"627\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:type\" content=\"image\/webp\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:card\" content=\"summary_large_image\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:site\" content=\"@WeAreBrightmine\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:label1\" content=\"Est. reading time\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data1\" content=\"73 minutes\" \/>\n<script type=\"application\/ld+json\" class=\"yoast-schema-graph\">{\"@context\":\"https:\/\/schema.org\",\"@graph\":[{\"@type\":[\"Article\",\"BlogPosting\"],\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.brightmine.com\/uk\/resources\/hr-compliance\/bullying-harassment\/podcast-sexual-harassment-in-the-workplace\/#article\",\"isPartOf\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.brightmine.com\/uk\/resources\/hr-compliance\/bullying-harassment\/podcast-sexual-harassment-in-the-workplace\/\"},\"author\":{\"name\":\"Natasha Wiebusch\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/www.brightmine.com\/uk\/#\/schema\/person\/bcadc1ee5995923a6999b020c2d272dd\"},\"headline\":\"Sexual harassment in the workplace &#8211; 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