Unfair discmissal changes – how success profiles can help you make a success of shorter probationary periods

Robert Shore: Hello, and welcome to the Brightmine podcast, formerly known as the XpertHR podcast. Brightmine is a leading provider of people data, analytics and insight, offering employment law expertise, comprehensive HR resources and reward data to meet every HR and organisational challenge and opportunity. You can find us any time of the day or night at www.brightmine.com.   ­­­

Hello everyone. My name is Robert Shore, and today we’re going to be talking about the use of success profile during the training of new recruits. Of course there’s a big change coming to unfair dismissal in January, reducing the qualifying period for protection from unfair dismissal from two years to six months, and this in turn is having a big impact on the way organisations are thinking about probationary periods for new employees. So it’s a big and important subject.

To talk about success profiles and thinking about training in general, I’m delighted to be joined today by Deborah Kent, HR manager at Money Advice Trust. They’re very welcome to the podcast.

Deborah Kent: Thank you, Robert. Thanks for inviting me.

Robert Shore: I should begin by mentioning how we made contact in the first place. You attended a Brightmine webinar on the unfair dismissal changes – I’ll put a link to that in the webinar show notes – and you mentioned your use of success profiles in the chat. And everyone wanted a copy. There was this huge clamour for that, so I thought you’d be a great idea to get you on to talk about that. And we’ll also be publishing a piece of your writing for us, which is wonderful.

So let’s begin with a bit of scene-setting, really. So a bit of information about you and your organisation.

Deborah Kent: Sure. So I’m a HR manager, [unclear – 0:01:44.7] organisation, as you said, Money Advice Trust. And we give self-help advice to the public and small businesses on managing their debts. So that advice can range from very straightforward – credit card debt, for example – through to multiple and complex financial issues. Our advisors deals with very many vulnerable clients.

Robert Shore: So as you say, some of it’s very straightforward and some of it can be quite complex and technical. So when you are training a new recruit, how long does that usually take and how do you use probation periods in order to achieve the best outcomes?

Deborah Kent: So it was a long learning process. There’s a great deal of information that advisors need to absorb. And traditionally our probation periods were between 9 and 12 months. And of course we had the luxury of being able to extend that. We don’t have that anymore so we’ve had to really think about how we shorten that training period and really progress advisors through to getting up to speed with a lot less time, now that the unfair dismissal changes are coming through.

Robert Shore: Yeah. And when you’re saying, so probation periods of 9 to 12 months and then possibility of extensions as well, was that generally with successful outcomes? I mean, this was working for your organisation?

Deborah Kent: Generally yes, but I would say that we would…we had the luxury of being able to give lots of support to people. So even where they were nearing the end of that probation we would just try and really work with them just to get them over the line. ‘Cause after all, it takes, you know, money and investment and time to recruit and train people, and we wanted to get the best out of them that we could. So we were guilty of extending that probation period and we had the luxury to do so. It’s not the case anymore so we really have to recruit sensibly and wisely, and we have to make sure that we’re working really well with the new trainees, they’re ultra-clear on what’s expected of them, managers are ultra-clear how to manage it, and then there’s no surprises towards the end of the probation period.

Robert Shore: Yeah. So this change in legislation in many ways is forcing your organisation, like so many others, to sort of sharpen up, up there, you know, possibly in a very useful way but it does also mean that, in this case for instance, there’s a lot of quite complicated information to take on board and processes to internalize really quite rapidly. So what’s the probation period going to be from this point? Is it immediately, with immediately effect? Deborah Kent: So we’ve already started. So we had some trainees start back in May and June. So we’ve now issued them with these success profiles and what’s expected, and we’ve been working with them on the new style of training, which is very practical from day one, rather than spending a proportion of time within the classroom and learning a lot of theory. So we’ve sped that up and now we’ve reduced that probation period down to five months. That gives us a little bit of wriggle room because the statutory notice is also included in that six-month period. So effectively we have a five month and three weeks sort of period to get people up to speed. So we’ve reduced it to five months, you know, giving a little bit of wriggle room.

Robert Shore: Yeah. And so I suppose now then extensions become more or less impossible?

Deborah Kent: Yes. We’ve removed the reference to an extension period completely from the policy. So we have to make a decision – ‘Are you staying or are you going?’ – at five months.

Robert Shore: We’ll get onto the sort of details of the success profile in a moment. So let’s talk through the way that you sort of changed your training period. So first of all you’ve obviously reduced the training period.

Deborah Kent: We were actually doing that before we knew about the unfair dismissal changes. We wanted to give advisors a really sort of practical take on what the job was like from the very beginning. So we used to do lots of theory and ease them into this process, but then we had feedback that said, ‘Do you know what? I really would like to know what the job is earlier on.’ So we rolled that up for her. So that’s really helped us to shorten that training period, and that’s obviously been of benefit with the new unfair dismissal changes coming in.

Robert Shore: So you used to have something that was almost entirely theoretical to begin with?

Deborah Kent: That’s right, yeah.

Robert Shore: Whereas now people have to sort of get in the water and swim?

Deborah Kent: That’s right. So we show our CRM from day one, so they’re using and understanding how to create records and how to write up notes alongside giving that advice all in one go, rather than try to log into the CRM six weeks’ later and apply that theory. It seems to be a better way for people to learn.

Robert Shore: Okay. So actually, again that’s been quite a positive change then for the organisation in many ways, in terms of just sort of forcing you to look at how you…

Deborah Kent: Absolutely. And the feedback from the trainees is that they really welcome that approach, and that they’re getting up to speed quicker by using that approach to training.

Robert Shore: Okay. Now, success profiles are a sort of another key component, maybe the key component in this change. So what is a success profile, in the first place?

Deborah Kent: So it’s essentially a document that says, ‘This is the job, this is what we expect of you during your training period, this is what we expect during your sort of on-the-job learning, and this is what we’ll give to you in return, this is the support that we’re going to give to you to help you get there.’

And what we like about the success profile is that it’s really transparent. It’s transparent for the individual who understands completely what’s expected of them, and it also makes the job of the manager much easier because they can confidently manage people to know expected standards. So that transparency, we think, is worth having a success profile for.

Robert Shore: And at what point do you sort of issue the success profile? Do you ever show it during the recruitment process?

Deborah Kent: This is a new process so we haven’t yet shown that in recruitment. That’s not to say that we won’t in the future, by certainly by day one we’re sharing the success profile with new trainees so they’re understanding from the start exactly what we’re expecting of them and they can work towards that.

Robert Shore: And so we’ll go into detail about what the success profile covers in a second. Is there ever any negotiation, so you issue somebody who’s just been employed with this and do they ever say, ‘Well hold up a second, this bit doesn’t…’ (you know, possibly for very good reason) ‘…this bit doesn’t sound right for me. Do we need to talk about how that’s phrased, how it’s…?’

Deborah Kent: That hasn’t happened yet. That’s not to say we wouldn’t take the feedback on board. So one thing I have done with the new trainees is I’ve said, ‘We do welcome your feedback,’ ‘cause actually, those new trainees are really our guinea pigs on this process. They only started in May and June, and they’re the first ones, as groups, to go through this process. So we would certainly take their feedback on board and then amend and tweak as we go.

Robert Shore: Okay. So let’s talk about what a success profile includes. So what does it cover? Deborah Kent: Sure. So we say, ‘In your training period these are the standards we expect in terms of, you know, your participation in your learning, your behaviour, your professionalism, your collaboration with your colleagues, and actually how you engage with that training.’ And then we score that element of…each week we score them on all of those areas, and then that goes to the line manager to feed into their monthly checks.

And then when they move to on-the-job learning, we’re then assessing how they gather and record information during their first supported calls, as well as the quality, the call structure and how they manage their customer service skills. And also living and demonstrating our values as well. That’s really important. So we also measure them on how they’re doing. And then again they’re scored on all of those elements. That feeds into their monthly checks with their managers, and they have these open conversations about where things are going really well, and also where things are perhaps falling down a little and we need to support further.

Robert Shore: So these are generally people who are speaking to members of the public all the time?

Deborah Kent: That’s right.

Robert Shore: So obviously that really is crucial, and you’re trying to get people to adopt your values more or less from day one?

Deborah Kent: Yeah.

Robert Shore: How easy is that actually in the first place, so to have somebody come on board, they are maybe immediately speaking to people beyond the organisation? You know, it’s quite a tough thing to ask of somebody, isn’t it, that they should already have internalised everything?

Deborah Kent: That’s right. There is a lot to learn and obviously those customer service skills, you know, our advisors come across some really harrowing experiences from people, and it’s really important that, you know, we empathise and we don’t judge, and that we take them through and we try and find the solution for them. So those customer service skills are also part of that training.

Robert Shore: So in terms of then…which I know one reason why everybody wanted you to share the success profile in the webinar, is how to really do probation well, and to have sort of continuous feedback, or at least continual feedback. I think a lot of organisations find that actually only really begin to make decisions quite late on in the process, whereas…so okay, you’ve got a five-month period. There’s a line manager meeting I think you said every month. Is that right? And then…but every week something else is happening? Sort of, can you explain to me all of those bits, how they fit together? Deborah Kent: So particularly in the training, the scores are given weekly. So the trainer will feed those scores on all of those criteria through to the line manager and say where they’re doing really well, where they’re not doing so well. And then the manager will collate all of that information, review it, and then they’ll hold a meeting, their monthly check-in. That’s not to say they don’t have conversations outside of that. The guide that supports the manager and the trainee through this actually outlines when we’ll have an informal conversation with you and when things will go a little bit more formal because you’re not quite getting there.

So the success profile is just that culture transparency about what we expect, where you’ll have a conversation where things are going wrong. So there’s no sort of late coming to a decision because you already know that you’re on track to make that decision. And that’s where I think that managers are really finding this a comfortable thing to work with because they’ve got clarity right from the beginning, and it helps them to measure, and it helps them to support, and it helps them to make a decision by the end of that probation period.

Robert Shore: Yeah. And it’s really open and honest with the employee as well, isn’t it? So there’s a certain kind of fairness built in.

Deborah Kent: So yeah, that’s it. And it’s not all one way. We also encourage the trainee to come to us if anything is wrong. So if something doesn’t feel right, come to us. ‘Cause it’s not all about us telling you what we need. We know that you’re going to have needs as well. So it’s that two-way conversation that really helps people to hopefully succeed during their probation period and beyond.

Robert Shore: So it sounds as though the training period is really quite intense. In terms of the line managers – ‘cause I think again often it’s the case that line managers have jobs and then they’re also line managers as well – is there enough space in a line manager’s working life to be able to be involved in something quite so intense? How do you make that?

Deborah Kent: It is really difficult, yeah, and our line managers have a lot to do. You know, it’s a big job. They’re supporting, you know, people on the job already who have been there some time and now they’re supporting, you know, a group of trainees. So it isn’t easy but I think this is one of the most important processes and one of the most important ones to get right ‘cause you literally don’t have enough time to…and the luxury beyond sort of five, six months to let that go. So it is a case of sort of prioritising that task perhaps a little bit above others.

Robert Shore: But then you get to an outcome sooner, I guess, than…

Deborah Kent: That’s right, yeah. So it’s a, you know, a shorter time to have that pain, whereas hopefully you’ll make that decision and, you know, it’s done and dusted.

Robert Shore: Yeah. And the scoring you could talk about. How subjective is scoring?

Deborah Kent: We’ve given lots of detail within each score – so what a zero looks like where you’re not meeting the requirements, up to a three where you’re exceeding those requirements. And we’ve actually padded out what each of those criteria looks like for each of the sort of attitude, behaviour, reliability criteria that we’ve put in. So it’s really easy for managers to understand exactly where that person sits within the scoring mechanism, ‘cause we’ve padded that out with the detail of what that looks like.

Robert Shore: And are the scores shared with the employee at the time, on a week-by-week basis? Okay.

Deborah Kent: The employee also knows what the scores are, what the detail behind those scores are as well in advance, ‘cause it’s already within their guide.

Robert Shore: And I know that this is a new process for your organisation. At the same time, you know, what sort of conversations are you having as a result of this scoring, it being visible to the employee? Are you learning from that and then acting, or…?

Deborah Kent: I think it’s early days. I think we are really on the start of this sort of new journey. But certainly the feedback from managers so far is that they really like the clarity that they’re getting, and that’s giving them a little bit more confidence to make those decisions.

Trainees, I think it’s early days for. We’re still seeking feedback but watch this space. We’ll get back to you when we have more.

Robert Shore: Sort of to summarise in terms of, you know, you saw the change that’s coming with unfair dismissals, that this reduces it from two years to six months. Like a lot of other organisations you had to pivot and go to a shorter probation period. What are the…just sort of, you know, go back over some of the things you’ve already said, but just in brief what are the advantages in doing it this way? You know, the legislation has done something useful, in a way? Obviously it’s a pressure on employers. Is it also good for employers? Deborah Kent: Yeah. I think it can be. I think it encourages managers to have these early conversations and address things that are not going quite well, and do that earlier. And I think that is a good thing. I think the bad thing is the bureaucracy and the administration of it. It is a lot of hard work. You know, if you don’t follow your timeline that’s going to potentially cause problems, your, like, normal performance management procedures where decisions aren’t made. But I think, you know, for us certainly it’s really made us concentrate on exactly what’s important and what do we need out of this process because it was such a tight timeline. And although we were already working on improving that training period and shortening it down, this has really helped us hone in on making those decisions really quickly. So I think it does have a silver lining benefit.

Robert Shore: Well that’s certainly good to hear, that you know, actually it’s helped you to refine processes in a useful way. And then do you do top-up training, though, beyond the probationary period then? Have you moved a part of the training beyond probation?

Deborah Kent: So one of the things we really had to look at was how much knowledge we felt an advisor would need in order to be able to deliver advice much more quickly than they were used to. So we really had a good look at the topics and said, you know, ‘What comes up more rarely? What comes up really regularly?’ and tailor the training to that. So the more difficult, complex subjects that don’t come up so often we move further down the line to sort of later on training once they’ve passed their probation and they’re settling into the job.

Robert Shore: Right. So as you say, you’re already seeing the effects of giving managers and new trainees transparency in this way. So I hope that we’ll hear more about the success of the new probation periods that you’ve employed. And of course you’re writing a piece for us, which we’ll publish in due course as well, that will give people a bit more detail about actually how to write a success profile.

Deborah Kent: Yes.

Robert Shore: Which I’m sure they’ll be delighted to see. And we obviously have lots of supporting materials on the Brightmine website for how to do probation well. Thank you so much for joining us today. And all I have to say now is just until next time.